The Believer Discussion [ index ] From Message Allon   5/16/2003 14:26:39 Subject: Submission IP: Logged Message: Hi all, I just wanted to bring up my view on this movie. First of all let me start of by saying that I am Jewish by birth but am more of an Atheist, I am one of the secular Israeli's that Danny mentions in the movie, when he says he hates Jews but not especially Israeli's and by the way I think that was a great point. I am also pretty anti religion (not that I care much) and I have no love for judaism, it bores me if anything and I think lots of parts of the religion are really dumb. My point is this: 1/I found that the movie managed to actually explain in a most original way, some of the joys of judaism, even though this has not changed me in any way (I hope) it did remind me what the kick is that jews get out of this, how did the movie do this? I will explain and this is my second and more important point: 2/Danny's girlfriend likes to be hit, she likes to be controlled, she gets a sexual kick out of this, it turns her on, she learns judaism with Danny to "know thy enemy" but actually they follow some of the customs and it is very clear they enjoy this, it relaxes them, it fulffills them... Wow.. how original, what an amazing incitefull view, it shocked me, Judaism is to submit, not question the Torah, but follow it and see how it effects you, I never realized this, I guess I needed the comparison to his girlfriends sexual subission to religious submission to realize this. This is my point, I would be glad to hear what anyone else thinks about this. Ben   5/21/2003 07:04:18 RE: Submission IP: Logged Message: I think thats a good point Allon. His girlfriend was sexually submissive, but this was fuelled by hate and confusion (her family life was somewhat wierd) . Her Submission towards religion was ultimately fuelled by love. Do you really hope you're still an Aethiest Allon?It's funny how jews are largely immutable in their diaspora, but give them a land of their own and watch them turn their backs . You should think of how far Jews have come and how amazing it is that they (you) are still here despite thousands of years of oppression . you are a 'veteran of history' and I find it very sad that you would wish to throw away what has been so laboriously preserved for you. 'Every Hebrew should look upon his Faith as a temple extending over every land to prove the immutability of G-D, and the unity of his purposes. He/she should regard themselves as one of the pillars that support that temple from falling to the ground, and add, however insignificant in itself, to the strength, the durability, and the beuty of the whole' Grace Aguilar 1842 Allon   5/23/2003 16:30:31 RE: Submission IP: Logged Message: I understand your point, however I wonder if my point of view has occured to you. - here it is: I am thankfull for my people who struggled to set us free. Freedom was the prize we struggled for, for so many years. Why would I now throw this prize away? Would that not be an insult to my history? Did they fight all those years for me to be locked to a religion, or for me to have the right to do what I chose? In any case, I choose my ways, I see it that I am moving forwards and shudder at the thought of being pulled back. Hopefully there will not be a need to fight for this basic right in the future, religion is not the point, it is just another way of life that people now have the freedom to express openly, that is great, but it is not for me as it is not for many others (thank god) :) Dave 12/10/2003 10:20:21 wow ben IP: Logged Message: Ben, your statements are pretty "in your face". I ask you this Ben, is it right to live embedded in history? or perhaps does it cause us to miss out on an original relation with the universe. I identify with allon in that i was raised and barmitzvahed and eventually confirmed into the Jewish Faith, only to grow up, explore, study many other religions, and realize that judaism is very limiting. For starters, are we "the chosen people". such a notion is perposterious. it segregates jews from the everyone else. i'll note that diversity is the spice of life, but what makes a jew better than a bhuddist, a daoist a greek orthodox? is it their rituals? rituals which are a merely motions...created hundreds of years ago at a time when thought and philosphy were far different than today. Why are our story's any more significant than stories in the Analogues of Confuscious, Lao Tzu, the New Testiment...or even traditional folklore? Are not all religions attempting the same thing...salvation? Ben, have you ever read any works by Ralph Waldo Emerson? He is a brilliant man, who when faced with a situation like danny burrows, philosophized instead lashing out. I encourage you to please read, in particular, emerson's essay on nature, which talks very deeply about informal religion. how our actions can be our prayers. ben, please respond to this, i am eager to continue this dialogue. i feel we perhaps have much to learn from each other. aly   12/30/2003 10:08:22 RE: Submission IP: Logged Message: I watched the movie last night for the first time. I did not look for hidden meanings I enjoyed the movie for what it was. Unfortunately I couldn't help but be disturbed regarding Lena, and her obsession with being hit during sex. I don't feel it is submission. She asked to be hit, then said not that hard. (the first time) She wanted punishment, possibly for asking "whats wrong with Jews?" She wasn't hit durig sex with Billy Zane. Matter of fact she was on top. How is that submissive. Her being hit by Danny is possibly a foreshadow and symbolism for her "submissing" to Judaism. raydoncuzy   1/11/2004 20:56:45 RE: Submission IP: Logged Message: people, this was a movie. your reading too much into it. she bites her skin head after reading the tora. michael   2/15/2004 02:09:09 RE: Submission IP: Logged Message: i aagree with aly... it wasnt about submission but punishment. She wanted to be cemented in her beliefs but once she was ambivalent she wanted to be punished, she eventually though left her beliefs and found salvation in the culture of judaism even though she had the facade of "knowing her enemy" it was really her giving into what she really wanted and that was judaism Y o z ê f   2/22/2004 11:24:19 RE: Wow Ben IP: Logged Message: ATT: Dave This is the first time I come in here, with alot of toughts myself... To start with I am Jewish (on Paper) with my many toughts I've rebelled from and discovered, or may I say, completed the Jewsih religion and it's knowledge in which I strongly beleive got inherited from many different cultures before it. Firstly, I'd like to challenge the so-called "Chosen People" a phrase that can be translated in many many different ways, always dependant on our State of Consciousness. Secondly, the Whole Torah is written to expand our state of Consciousness, our awareness, of things that were always there around us... but unobvious to our 5 senses, that constantly fool us. example: Isaac Newton saw the apple fall, and realised that there is a thing called Gravity... How many people before him saw apples fall, and didn't realise gravity? Thirdly, the expansion of consciousness is found in all religions, especially what I like about the Torah is that all is spelled out, but left to our state to determine and decode the writings. Please, I would love to discuss more with you about your ideas and toughts... Please do feel free to email me at 'keyrodeo@hotmail.com'.