| From | Message |
Laura
1/24/2003
10:39:16
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 Subject: Ambivalent
IP: Logged
Message:
After having read some of the messages in this discussion, I've heard many different and wise ideas. However, I find it strange that none of the messages I read, looked for the answer I thought obvious. When wondering so much about how it is possible for Danny to be so fascinated by Nazism, I found that it gives Danny an opportunity to show this ambivalence. And ambivalence is not a strange feeling, I guess most of us must have tried it. It seems absurd, but is it any different from the love/hate realtionship you experience with some people?
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Clark
1/24/2003
22:35:18
| RE: Ambivalent
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Love/Hate feelings may be a normal part of life, and part of the maturing process. I think as we get older, we learn to separate circumstances and actions of someone from our judgements of a human being worthy of existing (with some extreme exceptions). Even if this is not the case, the idea of judging entire races and ethnicities can not be reasonably extended from a personal love/hate relationship. In this day and age, and with the Ryan's character's intellect there must be more than an expression of ambivalence. There is an intense self-loathing. His beliefs are an attempt to excise himself from this self loathing (i.e., I hate them. I'm not one of them), mitigated, at times, by a desire to accept whom he is.
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Laura
1/29/2003
11:05:38
| Strange fascination or search of knowledge
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Message:
After September 11th sales of books about islam and the Koran increased, at leasted that's what I've heard and read several times. If this is true, is this then an exampel from the real world, where primarily americans, although not from specific areas, religions, races ect., are fascinated by Islam because of how they found that al-queda had hurt them?
Yes!- Danny goes way further than this and he is fictive, as he is only partly based on the real Danny, whose story we can read in the screenplay. But perhaps this fascination or search of knowledge derives from the same feeling....?
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Emil
2/16/2003
18:11:42
| RE: Ambivalent
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I think that its quite clear that Ryans ambivalent feeling toward the jewish history, is the key. Being an intelligent person he can see that the jewes, in the light of myth, are the chosen people by god, but they are also chosen for being suppressed in the life on earth. Ryan is jewish, which he can never deny nor escape, eventhough he is trying. But he is in doubt about the way the jews live their life and follow the myth that is created among themself(and others). Being an intelligent person, he doesnt want to be a human under the power of others, but wants to be in control. This is not possible for a jew, if he is to accept the myth, that is created. All this leaves Ryan in dispair and he have to react to it. A normal person in his position, would have chosen to live his life in a normal way not being fundamental, but just live everyday life and living it a bit jewish. But being an fundamentalist Beliver(therefore the title "The Believer"), he has to live his life faithful to what he believes. This creates the ambivalence in him, which ofcause also leads to self-loathing(again because he can't free himself from being jewish, eventhough he hate the myth of the jews being suppressed both by God and by the nazist). All this furthermore leads to that he have to make the most extreme move and become a nazi and a jew at the same time.
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Laura
2/17/2003
16:06:29
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
Ryan isn't a nazi. Nazism is used as a tool.. First of all it is opposed to judaism, primarily in the eyes of the public because of holocaust. Second; Ryan/Danny is not interested in any other idea within nazism, than the idea of killing jews. Nazism enables him to express his selfloathing/self-hatred. However strong this feeling may be, he never really kills a jew!
I am not sure that there is a clear answer to Danny's conflict, especially not when Henry Bean gives several answers. He explaisn it, as us, with ambivalence as well...
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Emil
2/18/2003
17:47:54
| Clearing up some things
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Okay sorry my mistake, its better to call Ryan by the name in the movie: Danny
I have some remarks regard you claiming, that Danny is not a Nazi.
First of all: Lets begin with a simple question; What is the definition of a Nazi? - Lauras definition is "opposed to judaism, primarily in the eyes of the public because of holocaust", yes in the eyes of some people, but its not every day we get as good a view on the single Nazi as it is the case with Danny. So more useful as a definition is: "A nazi is (historically) a member of the German National Socialist Party"(Source: Oxford Advenced Learner's Dictionary of current English).
This leads us to my point: Danny is the leader of an American Nazi Party. Compared to the definition given in the dictionary, Danny is a Nazi(and to reduce the chances of further misunderstadings, then lets think back on the Nazi Eichmann(I think u would agree, that he was a Nazi). He didnt took interest in the ideas, but just took care of his bizarre job. You would be surprised to learn how many of the Nazipeople didnt took interest in the ideas, but just became Nazi because of personal interest(chose your own context and explain it psycological or in another way, if you want to analyse some of the cases).
But anyway: just stick to your definition. The above shown definition, is the one I used in my message.
Second; Laura wrote "Nazism enables him to express his selfloathing/self-hatred", in this I agree. But I also see some of it on another level than you. I think that he becomes a Nazi, because he wants to take control of his own life, and furthermore wants the jewish people to be less suppressed in the life on earth(I guess but are not totally sure, this is a point where you disagree!?). Mythological being the suppressed, the Jewish people have difficulties escape this. For Danny who personalises a Jew that want to escape this, his only way of doing this is to join something that suppress the Jews. He has to become a Nazi eventhough he is still a Jew!
And one more thing to clear up some misunderstandings; the fact that Danny wants to be in control of his life does not in my eyes make him a Nazi. Its when he becomes the leader of the Nazigroup, he becomes a Nazi. In "However strong this feeling may be, he never really kills a jew!". I have to disagree. Danny kills himself, being both a Nazi and a Jew. Which by the way summons up the conflict.
And lets jump down to your source: Laura wrote: "I am not sure that there is a clear answer to Danny's conflict, especially not when Henry Bean gives several answers. He explaisn it, as us, with ambivalence as well...", Ofcause it is interesting to find out, what Henry Bean says and I am glad he agress in the ambivalenceconflict, but the movie still have to stand for itself, and we have to look at it with clear eyes.
I think you have been to focused on the selfloath. It is, as I wrote in my first message, very clear, that he have a lot of selfloath inside. But this arises from that he wants to be in control. Ofcause the holocaust play a very important role in this, but also look at the way Danny examines the bible. He doesnt like that the jews are being suppressed by God, and he makes a revolt against it.
But when all this is said. I have to become friendly again. I think, that we actually see the movie in almost the same way.
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Laura
2/19/2003
11:21:50
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
Emil... you make me laugh, because I too think we agree and our views on The Believer are quite similar. And you are correct, he does kill a jew when killing himself.
There are some aspects in which I don't agree with you, but this discussion is beginning to irritate me, as I can't answer you back straight ahead and therefore also have to wait for your replies...
But isn't it great that they still make intellectual movies; movies which requires thought.... Anyway I've enjoyed our discussion.
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TheBeliever
4/20/2003
05:04:18
| The divorce of religion and church
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We all struggle within ourselves. Religion is mans greatest struggle. We have so many dieties to speak to. We have Jesus, Muhommed, Buddha, Zeus, and of course more. We cannot base oursleves on such names. William Blake made it clear, "Remove away the blackening church,/ Remove away the marriage hearse,/ Remove away that man of blood,/ You'll quite remove the ancient curse." The church is man's downfall. The bond between God and man is personal, and the church...can eat a it.
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Matt
4/23/2003
13:38:19
| why?
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The idea of a Jewish Nazi is in essence an oximoron. Everyone can agree to that. Danny, an extreamily intellegent man, can not see how religon and reason dont always coincide. He knows Jewish law, Jewish customs, and how to read Hebrew. He is a Jew. Now that I established that, why does he hate himself, his own people. 1st i think a childhood experience drove him of the path of Judsiasm, and from then on he u grew father and father apart. Now in todays society u can see many many Jews who do not practice and they dont become Nazis. Why Danny? Maybe he was able to see the Jews from a 3rd party point a view. As a Jew myself, i understood what Danny ment by we need to be persecuted. Unfortunately when we are not persucuted we loose faith. Now in a free world when we do not have to worry about being killed or persecuted from the government, we go do far to the left that we sometimes forget that we are Jewish. This is horrible to me, sometimes i feel that these assimulted Jews need a good kick in their tuchas, to remind them they are jewish, they are differnt. I am differnt and proud of it. Another comment that saddens me and seems to be true, is when Danny, said that Jews in Israel arent really Jewish. Not because they have soil to plow, but a feeling in Israel of how less and less the Jewish presnce in felt or even need. When by nature Isael is a Jewish nation and a nation for the Jews. Israelies must identify that they are Jewish, stop fighting silly battles b/w religous and secular. The Jews are not a perfect people, but they are a poeple. People. We are brothers and sisters Ahavas Israel, love thy fellow Jew. A Jewish Nazi is just a Jew trying to help Jew realize they are jewish. Anothering i notice is that the biggest symbol in Judaism is the Torah, and when the Torah was brought into the scene, u can see a change in Danny's deminar and actions. He did not want the Torah touched by ne1. He did not was ne1 naked infront of the Torah, and when push came to shove. He saved every1 life in the shul in the last scene. Killing himself, how long can a man live in total contadiction to himself, his soul, his nishama.
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EducationYourself
5/01/2003
22:50:27
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
Laura,
Your "example from the real world" worries me. Please understand that your comparison of begin Jewish and wanting to understand Nazism and being American and wanting to understand Islam is extremely flawed! Being American and wanting to understand Al Queda is more acurate but is hardly a comparison. You have regurgitated something you've read in the media and replaced Al Queda with Islam. Islam is as noble a religion as any. When we talk about 'terrorist' that are Christian we never bother to mention their religion.
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Ben
5/02/2003
09:37:38
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
I just wanted to tell you matt that I think you are more or less spot on. As a jew myself I have my own personal issues about the contradictary trickery which society uses to accomodate religion into the modern world. There are so many distractions nowadays and people haven't got time to look at their faith. There was a scene in the believer which really made me think and that was when Danny and his friends were ordered by the court to participate in a discussion group with some Holocaust survivors. After accusing the jews of being weak for not defending themselves enough during the holocaust, an wise old man called them all putz's and said, "G-d gave Hitler to the jews for abbandoning the Torah"
This really unsettled Danny and the remark made him want to leave because his mask would have slipped. He agreed with the man. Danny definitely felt as a free thinker he needed to look at his people from a different angle. He felt alienated because He found elements of jewish learning and lifestyle suppressive and/or contradictory.
I would call what he was doing, extreme soulsearching. The guy was a believer, and in the end he wanted to know if he would be punished for taking a jewish life, his own life in a search for the truth. I found the ending a tad vague. Was he ultimately punished for not believing the story of Isaac? What do you think?
Oh buy the way, what Laura said about amaericans fascination with Islam. I think that is complete bollocks, because being American is not a faith, and neither is Al-Queda. They both simply represent conflicting ideologies. Islam, like judism or any other religion should be respected
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Ben
5/02/2003
09:37:39
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
I just wanted to tell you matt that I think you are more or less spot on. As a jew myself I have my own personal issues about the contradictary trickery which society uses to accomodate religion into the modern world. There are so many distractions nowadays and people haven't got time to look at their faith. There was a scene in the believer which really made me think and that was when Danny and his friends were ordered by the court to participate in a discussion group with some Holocaust survivors. After accusing the jews of being weak for not defending themselves enough during the holocaust, an wise old man called them all putz's and said, "G-d gave Hitler to the jews for abbandoning the Torah"
This really unsettled Danny and the remark made him want to leave because his mask would have slipped. He agreed with the man. Danny definitely felt as a free thinker he needed to look at his people from a different angle. He felt alienated because He found elements of jewish learning and lifestyle suppressive and/or contradictory.
I would call what he was doing, extreme soulsearching. The guy was a believer, and in the end he wanted to know if he would be punished for taking a jewish life, his own life in a search for the truth. I found the ending a tad vague. Was he ultimately punished for not believing the story of Isaac? What do you think?
Oh buy the way, what Laura said about amaericans fascination with Islam. I think that is complete bollocks, because being American is not a faith, and neither is Al-Queda. They both simply represent conflicting ideologies. Islam, like judism or any other religion should be respected
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luXor
5/12/2003
23:29:53
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
I don't think he was punished in the end. I think it was meant to be sort of a vague ending, of what he expected the afterlife to be like, based on all his criticism.
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Allon
5/16/2003
15:18:50
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
I don't think the end was what happened to him after he dies, just another flashback to his painfull childhood, in the moments before he died.
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Mark Storm
5/31/2003
22:59:45
| Disagree with the "suppression is our fate" theory
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Message:
I seem to notice a number of people have let this theory: That the Jews have it as their fate that they are to be suppressed - unchallenged.
I disagree with this theory and challenge it here.
There are enough verses throughout the Tanach that make it quite clear that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the other patriarchs and prophets NEVER saw themselves as a subordinate people doomed to suppression. Rather the contrary: they saw themselves as princes within a people who were to be Priests and Princes of the earth.
Nothing if not a strong self-image, I'd say!
It's time to ditch this: "Oh we're Jews and we're born to suffer!" rubbish.
That's nothing but neurotic self-hatred borne from an embarrassment of riches, cleverness, success and talent.
My words here are not an argument for Jewish Supremacy (that would be as odious as any Nazi-style Fascism), but the facts are there: Jews haven't survived three thousand years of oppression by being stupid, lazy, weak and foolish.
Jews don't exist to be SUPPRESSED.
Jews exist to be expose Mankind's rejection of God.
In this, we Jews are OPPRESSED - but not by God.
Admonished by God, yes.
Made aware of our illusions by God, yes.
Robbed of our pet idols by God, yes.
But not Oppressed.
Oppression against the Jews comes from Man.
Neither does God want Jews to be Suppressed.
You can proactively react against Oppression.
You can defiantly, vigorously, proclaim the Truth and Reality of God.
You don't have to scuttle like cockroaches in the filth - and apologise for being clever or talented.
You, as a Jew, are going to be hated NOT because you're a Jew! Get that stupid idea out of your head immediately! Or you'll end up like poor old Danny.
Danny didn't hate being a Jew.
Danny hated the way his American Ashkenzi Jewish culture had bought the lie; that to be Jewish was to accept suppression.
That's why he was so enamoured of Nazism,the Twentieth Century's most articulate expression of Material Empowerment. It was a completely understandable reaction against powerlessness. He wanted a God that was worthy of Love... not a bully who demanded subservience or He'd beat the living s*** out of you!
But it took the Jews three thousand years to work that out.
God doesn't deserve to be worshipped because He's powerful (despite what the book of Job appears to say).
God deserves to be worshipped because He's so powerful that He can make a Universe... BUT... have time to talk with a little human because He LOVES YOU!
Awwwwwwwwww, ain't that pretty?!
Yeah. It is. But maybe I should explain myself a bit more?
Jews are called by God to SUBMIT (having seen the grandeur and glory and beauty and LOVE of God) to God's Majesty, and Glory, and Wonder, and LOVE.
And then to tell the world about how good it is for a human to enjoy this submission.
So... are Jews like women, then, as Danny says at one point?
This is a difficult analogy. Most people are so thick they think that all Love is sexual. Young men especially are prone to make this error.
Feminists of all varieties compound the error, because they continually regard sexuality as synonymous with power. [There is a connection, but it is the abuses of sexuality that are the source of the feminist plaint: not the phenomenon of sex itself. This 'synonymising' of sex/power is, by the way, is the fundamental flaw in all feminist paradigms]. Sexuality is NOT about power.
Abuse is.
Cruelty is.
Rape is.
Beating someone up, is.
Taking someone's freedom and robbing them of dignity, is.
But real proper sex, is about Acceptance, Submission and Giving.
And that's Love.
Militant feminists (who have Power issues) would hate the idea that the human relationship to God is analogous to a women loving a man, and reject it immediately. But for myself, if the perfect human relationship with God is analogous to the best sex you've ever had, then God is the Masculine Lover and we are the Feminine Responder to that Love.
Don't misunderstand this! It's NOT sado-masochistic! It's NOT a homosexual thing either! For a start, I'm not gay and not into inflicting pain to get my kicks. [And we'll all just let the armchair Freudian psychoanalysts out there go off on their little tangents as they psychoanalyse me, shall we?]
Let's stick to the metaphor.
To fully enjoy Love, you have to submit. And, like it or not, if "masculiness" is defined as "that which acts upon that which receives" then God is the Ultimate expression of Maculineness.
Submission is NOT Suppression. Forcing someone to subordinate themselves to your power is nothing but the most hateful crime of all: this is what Danny couldn't understand. That's why he thought that 'sex' was, frankly, f****** a woman into subordination. Danny was wrong!
When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham should have had the sense to know that God needed Abraham to see for himself whether or not he was cut out to be the kind of man who could father a nation that would represent God to Mankind.
And to get that realisation about yourself necessitates one Hell of a test! I mean, look at the question here: "Do I really want to accept the Love of my God and proclaim it... or am I just playing around?"
To show your love for God, you have to give up everything else. Everything. Especially the thing (or person) that you think is your world.
To wit: Everyone of us has their own Isaac.
So.
You want to be happy?
Forget about trying to want to be God.
You never will. You'll just be an unhappy, neurotic, miserable little Danny.
This is one thing that Mohammed got right. To be happy as a human you have to let yourself be loved by God.
And that means Submission to God's Love.
No-one's saying you have to be weak, or pathetic, or a spineless wimp. No-one's suggesting that to accept Love is to be someone else's doormat.
Accepting Love is empowering. It feels good. Do it. Enjoy the exchange.
I'm not saying we should all fornicate with the nearest person available. Not all Love is sexual. [Derrhhh, to the Freudians!].
I AM saying that there is a time and place for the varieties of Love we know. Sexual love belongs inside a long-term partner-to-partner relationship.
Divine Spiritual Love is both pluralistic and partner-to-partner.
God wants us to enjoy Love... but HIS love above all.
I hope we all may.
- Mark Storm
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Jonathan E. Schiff
6/07/2003
15:20:11
| RE: Ambivalent
IP: Logged
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I do not know whether this discussion is still active, but I too am ambivalent about the film.
For one thing, I am not sure if anyone has discussed the allegorical character of the film. The Akeda (Binding of Isaac) is one of the central narratives in Judaism, and one that has been open to a variety of interpretations over the centuries as well as been found in different versions.
It is also apparently a central obsession for Danny. I had a little trouble incorporating this into the somewhat bizarre plot. But, it would seem that Danny is playing out as both Isaac--the sacrificed--and Abraham--the guy with the knife.
It's fascinating to see this played out against the backdrop of Jewish theology or perhaps non-theology.
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shai
6/07/2003
17:27:40
| RE: Ambivalent
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Jonathan - you're absolutely right. Danny kills himself
on the altar while excuting a liturgy fraught with
references to the akeda, just short of the moment when
the ram's horn, symbol of Isaac's rescue, is blown.
Danny has let us know that he is familiar with Shalom
Spiegel's "The Last Trial," a monograph on a medieval
midrashic poem in which Isaac is, in fact, killed by his
father. The poem, in turn, is a resonse to the mass
murder of Jews that accompanied the Crusades. This
was published by Schocken in Judah Goldin's
translation, and is a very beautiful book.
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Jess
8/09/2003
14:20:29
| RE: Ambivalent
IP: Logged
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Danny did kill a Jew, he killed himself. I may be mistaken but among the many ways that his suicide may be interpreted there is a distinct feeling that he is defying his Jewish roots and not submitting to the life he has created, he is ending it. He is the one taking charge. But at the same time, he is revealing his submissive side as he is letting his life be lost to his other side.
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Dee
9/27/2003
02:40:10
| RE: Ambivalent
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Message:
I saw the Believer for the first time couple of nights ago.
To me, Danny only seems ambivalent.To understand you would realy need to know what the Bible says.
Remember in the movie, Danny and a rabbi being interviewed on the news station mention "everlasting nothingness," or "infinite nothingness." What was mentioned is one of God's 13 atributes. The highest level of His spirituality. And what happens to unrepentant souls? Neverending nothingness... they no longer will exist.
Yup, thats what the Bible says. The Bible NEVER says us humans will be tormented in an everlasting pit of flames. We know Lucifer is sentenced to that, but he is a everlasting spirit and not flesh.
Everlasting nothingness... um... this is also God's highest atribute. God made everything from nothing. And back to nothing is where Danny was intending to go.
Danny persicuted his own people because he loves them so much he sacrificed not just his own body. He sacraficed his everlasting soul to be back as one with God, from where he came from. To where he longs to be.
If you know how the "chosen people" have disobayed God's commandments, as Danny knew, you would know what Danny is truly trying to do.
Danny reminds me of Tupac Shakure...
Another word people describe them as is "contradicting," but isn't that what "people" say about the Bible?
Satan is the great deciever. Ask yourself, why is it that people think the Bible contradicts itself?
But thats a whole other subject...
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Peter
10/02/2003
13:42:28
| RE: Ambivalent
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Let's get back to first causes. Danny's reaction against Jews stems from his belief, brought out in the classroom, that God is all powerful and he is powerless. He reacts strongly against this, and to empower himself, he begins to hate those who buy into it. This is actually hating the Jewish side of himself.
He is never a Nazi. He is an anti-semite who uses his Nazi shirt and fascist connections to express and spread his hate.
I agree with the person who observed that, at the end, he was both the Nazi (Jew hater/killer) who had the baby on his bayonet and the baby's father, who died while fighting back. The Jew hater/killer planted the bomb, the father cleared the room and allowed himself to be killed by the blast. The ending is quite complex and I haven't quite worked out all the subtleties, yet.
It is interesting that God is Nothing as well as all-powerful. I haven't quite worked that out, either, except that the concept has its roots in mysticism.
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nano
10/06/2003
09:44:22
| the coming die to yhe world
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Message:
the israelian jew is very dangers cause they take
the most place in world goverement specialy the united states & they can do what in any place from terorism with prisedent killer like sharon
that's way let them after many years get the horer
if the world silence for what it do in palestine
& the contry wich near it
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ash
11/29/2003
00:14:49
| RE: Ambivalent
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i dont even know if this is still going but i thought id try. and ill make it short and sweet. some one pointed out that at teh end of the film he is the father aswell. he said earlier in the film (to the ww2 survivors) that he wouldnt have stood around and let it happen he would have fought back, kill your enemy. i think that by the end he was a jew and he was fighting back against h the enemies. he wasnt standing around and letting it happen and therefore being the father and allowing himself to be killed for his people. he fought (and in doing so killed) his enemy, a nazi, and himself (maybe one of his biggest enemies, bc at the begining of the film he had turned from his jewish roots...read self loathing)does that make sense? i know what im trying to say but im not as articulate as danny.
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ash
11/29/2003
00:15:15
| RE: Ambivalent
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i dont even know if this is still going but i thought id try. and ill make it short and sweet. some one pointed out that at teh end of the film he is the father aswell. he said earlier in the film (to the ww2 survivors) that he wouldnt have stood around and let it happen he would have fought back, kill your enemy. i think that by the end he was a jew and he was fighting back against h the enemies. he wasnt standing around and letting it happen and therefore being the father and allowing himself to be killed for his people. he fought (and in doing so killed) his enemy, a nazi, himself (maybe one of his biggest enemies, bc at the begining of the film he had turned from his jewish roots...read self loathing)does that make sense? i know what im trying to say but im not as articulate as danny.
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ATHINKER
11/29/2003
16:37:02
| RE: Ambivalent
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I just watched The Believer this afternoon, it was incredibly thought provoking...as are all of the comments I've read here today....
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harry
12/01/2003
05:29:54
| Jew in the Nazi SS
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Message:
In many of the Nazi division such as the SS, there
were many jews who were not only grunts but were
officers. look at history from the egyptian to roman
era's and even today. there is a slave and master
Mentality, that jews have. look at the rest of the
world races which have been fighting for the lands
and their lives, have always forght back, not just one
or two tribes but the lot. native americans gave the
settlers a hard time. the palestinians out gunned by
tanks and f16 and cobra helecopters, rather die
fighting then be slaves and walk in to gas
chambers.Yugoslavia's ethnic cleansing, if it were
jews the number of dead and missing would be a lot
more the 250,000. they would run off to nutral
countries like many jews did during WWII. Bosnians
muslims forght back. they had as much right as serbs
and Croatian to the land, like jew had in western
europe. before and ever since the spanish
inquisition jew have fled or turned to help there
oppressor..The Spanish Inquisition, which began in
1480 and lasted for over three hundred years,
represents another period of terrible crimes against
the Jews. The Catholic Church
Emblem used during the Spanish Inquisition
authorized the Spaniards, Portuguese, and Brazilians
to force Jews to accept the Christian faith under the
threat of torture and death. They persecuted and
murdered thousands of Jews who refused to accept
the Christian faith. They forced many others to
leave their homes and put them in concentration
camp-like prisons. These events both demonstrated
and reinforced the widespread mistreatment of the
Jews because Jews wanted to maintain their own
faith. One way to kill people during the Spanish
Inquisition During the Reformation, the Jews did
not receive any more tolerance than in previous
centuries. The Cossack rebellion in Poland, also
known as 'the Deluge' of 1648-58, resulted in
hundreds of thousands of Jewish deaths. This
totaled more killings than the Crusades and the
Black Death pogroms combined. (The Holocaust
Center of the United Jewish Federation of Greater
Pittsburgh )
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